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#101 Re: Main Forum » Bruteforcing too easy, a proposal » 2014-02-01 16:15:57

jere wrote:

I had an idea, what if every time you used a tool, it affected how long before sirens? They could have a loudness rating or something. Some tools might not have a loudness rating

Yea, I thought about that something that reduced sirens also, but noise? Very clever. The effectiveness of tools lines up almost perfectly with the expected noise, ladders being the big exception. If it was flat amounts though, that would put a hard cap on how many tools you could bring in. And it would have to be a pretty big time penalty to discourage excessive tool use robbers. Also, this would prevent griefing, but not someone bringing in a ridiculous amount of tools and using just enough to bruteforce.

Overall, I think fuel is a more coherent way to handle this though. You're bring 50 ladders? I think you're going to need a bus....

Why not combine noise, fuel, and heat? They would compliment each other in creating practical/soft limits depending on a robber's priorities (scout? brute force? conserve money?) and restore more tension on the robber's side without, I feel, making the (rich) home owner too complacent. Fuel would limit tools to a reasonable amount, BUT with fuel alone there is no reason a patient (and rich) robber could not just make multiple consecutive trips instead of one big one with fewer tools. Tools $200 or less could cost 1 second; $400 tools would cost 2 seconds, $800 4 seconds, $1200 8 seconds, $2400 12 seconds. It's likely using tools would still save a robber time over puzzling out a trap, but this would force robbers to be very strategic about what they bring, how much they bring, and how often they use it.

Heat (like a mini-chill) is a bit separate, but I think it is necessary to compliment fuel and noise. The second (and so far only) successful robbery on my house was due to the robber making 4-5 consecutive trips with all the tools he could carry. Even if you limit the time and tools a robber can use, there still is little to no downside for a robber who keeps rushing back to your house and locking you out of it. I doubt it's Jason's intent for top players to obsessively keep trying to get into their house once they notice the same robber is hitting their place. Since there are no real-time notifications to tell you when you've been robbed or when the robber has left, heat to keep a specific robber away for, say 10-15 or 30-60 minutes from a particular house after each robbery will at least give the home owner a window of opportunity to view the video and one shot to alter or strengthen their defenses (assuming they have enough money).

Even with these three mechanics, there is still little stopping a sufficiently skilled, equipped, and persistent robber from pulling a successful heist. I prefer 30-60 minute heat because even combined with the limits of fuel and noise, it allows a persistent robber several chances to break into the house, assuming a player is at work or otherwise unable to check on their house more than once or twice a day. (9 hours away is effectively up to 17 or 8 chances, which I think is more than reasonable even with fuel and noise restrictions, considering there will be MULTIPLE robbers going after top houses). This creates tension on the side of the home owner as well as you'll need to be playing for at least 20 minutes to notice/check if someone returns with more tools and/or gets further into the house. Even if you do react, what do you change or strengthen? Then you'll need to wait and watch again... The fuel mechanic will always allow a sufficiently rich robber (and I think there would be enough of them) to go for broke after enough scouting runs, so no home owner can ever feel completely safe. 20-30 minute heat may be the best balance for robbers and home owners.

An added bonus is that you are now not only competing against the home owner, but also other robbers to be the first to successfully crack a house; at this point it's more about who is the first to have enough money to brute force a given house. I get the point Jason's trying to make about insecurity being the theme of this game, but it shouldn't have to translate into being tethered to your computer and being constantly logged into the game. That's obsessive and shouldn't be necessary.

Also, I noticed that idle players are not kicked out of their house with changes unsaved, but killed; is this only for people with starter houses or anyone? Especially without a warning, it's a bit unfair to someone who's lost their internet connection or who's legitimately been engrossed in beefing up their house defenses.

#102 Re: Main Forum » Game balance sugestions- please salvage my remaining nerves and sleep » 2014-01-31 14:20:40

radynom wrote:

I agree with the vulnerability and tension is necessary, but I do think the game needs some balancing.  It's now too easy for a rich robber to rob someone and destroy everything in a house.  The risk is very low for the robber because no trap can kill you if you have enough tool.  When you get robbed and your wife killed, you are basically dead as well.  And with the influx of new players, getting enough money is a lot easier than before.

No house should be safe, but robbing should carry more risk even if you have a lot of money.

I suggest limiting the total number of tools you can bring to something like 45 or less.  This way, a determined robber will still be able to rob anyone, but he/she may require 2 or 3 trips.  The robber will need to at least learn a bit about the traps to determine how to solve it or what tools are required, instead of mindlessly plowing through everything like it is now.

Why 45?  The house is a 30x30 grid, and you start in the middle edge.  45 tools will allow you to brute force to any where in the house if you use 1 tool every step.  You will be able to rob anyone as long as you know where the safe is and bring the right tool.

Exactly. I second this. Scaling up the "transportation" cost and forcing them to come back on multiple runs would have the same effect.

#103 Re: Main Forum » Too much money in the game? » 2014-01-31 14:01:41

Kel wrote:

Imho, unlimited tools is the problem in the balancing. Being rich enough enables you to just break any and all defense and thus any and all risk to loose everything smile

Agree with Kel. There is no tension on the robber's part if they have enough tools to push through anything. Limiting the tools each trip will force them to learn the house layout and keep returning until they can find the safe path or an alternate route using a limited number of tools.

#105 Re: Main Forum » Game balance sugestions- please salvage my remaining nerves and sleep » 2014-01-30 14:26:41

Ah, gotcha. It's a design feature, not a flaw! big_smile At least it'll be interesting to see how many tries and how much money it costs to breach a house before it falls. That would be an interesting top 8 feature- not just who has the most net worth, but also whose house required the most break-ins by an individual/expenditures to beat.

#106 Main Forum » Game balance sugestions- please salvage my remaining nerves and sleep » 2014-01-30 09:07:37

protox13
Replies: 11

Jason, I love this game! Thank you for making me a tense, sleep-deprived, nervous wreck for the past few days (It's been much more enjoyable than I make it sound). I have been fueled mainly by the unrelenting desire to improve my home and make it an impregnable castle (the design of which I may share once I consider it fairly breached), but I am camping out in my home as I write this because I am worried this may become impossible given how the game is currently set up. My case:

1. Vacation mode: From just over $100 to $25k in less than six hours. SIX. HOURS. First of all- I wish this were possible for non-techies/bankers/despots/billionaires in real life. Second, part of my meta strategy is laying low and not making myself a target by having pretty much zero net worth. THE NEWBS NEVER GOT THE MEMO. I'll never understand why people with no gear commit to a house lined with concrete and a commit pit bull. Do the math, people! Problem is, once this happens a few times (and it has, and it will continue to given the amount of people which have joined after Steam launch- congrats, by the way!), it snowballs and I become a target. Anyway, this is a rather long way of requesting the an option to put our house in hibernation mode. To avoid abuse by high-net worth players, I'm willing to give up literally 99% of my net worth- money and tools- or maybe even all of it- just to preserve my house for those times when I can't play obsessively every day.

2. An arbitrary amount of more money will always win against less money: Wired steel walls and wired concrete walls, tool limits, decoy safes (to make them start all over again). Another element of my meta strategy is making my house so expensive to crack people will throw their hands up in despair and give up after a scouting run. Or, as in I think the second and only heist against across all my lives, three or four (mind I'm not bragging- I mostly die self testing =P). I just joined about a week ago, and without having read previous forum threads, I get why you don't have wired concrete or steel walls or tool limits- it's to give lower-net worth players a chance of making a big score and give higher net-worth players a reason to keep on their toes. On the flip side, there is ultimately little one can do against a player with enough money to brute force one's defenses. Because of the snowballing problem I mentioned before, in a few hours working folks with sufficiently strong house designs see lots of money after coming home and may decide on a lark to take all that money and bust a house- maybe because they think it's worth it, and/or because that jerk owner clubbed their wife to death in this or a previous life, and/or (most importantly) because they've scouted the house before, run the numbers, and know they can. Without vacation mode or tool limits or stronger defenses, I think it's a matter of time before this happens. I like stronger walls and limited tools (say 10 each and up to 8- that is still almost $100k in tools) because they increase the cost of breaking into a home.

Anyway, just my two cents! Gotta burn that money down to a safer level...

#107 Re: Main Forum » Servers overloaded? » 2014-01-28 20:48:09

The silver lining to this is being forced to start over and ending up designing a most excellent death trap of a house. big_smile

#108 Main Forum » web error login = death » 2014-01-27 21:09:10

protox13
Replies: 2

I saw this screen (I don't recall what was happening at the time) and then was booted back to the default spawn screen ($2k etc). I would be more bummed out if this happened when I was more far advanced, and I wonder if this will happen again. Has this happened to anyone else?

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