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#51 Re: Main Forum » The Fortress of Mr. Corey Phillip Smith » 2014-11-04 03:35:18

I checked my log files and found that the previous time that Nelson edited his house was roughly the 1st of November. If he simply never edited his house since she died then wouldn't it still be on her despite visiting the house? However that would require that he left his wife there to die on purpose while having $20K cash, and that whoever killed her didn't come back. So a bug sounds far more likely.

#52 Re: Main Forum » Cordial Minuet hacking bounty » 2014-11-04 00:56:40

Yeah, I looked as well and the reason I missed it was that I was lazy (and busy) and did a simple grep, but the relevant function call was broken over multiple lines! And it was in the code since August.

#53 Re: Main Forum » The Fortress of Mr. Corey Phillip Smith » 2014-11-04 00:46:47

Guys, GUYS! Did anyone notice that Nelson had his dead wife on his doorstep (next to a live pitbull) with about $9500 of cash on her? And she'd been laying there for DAYS with noone noticing?!? I only noticed this morning after suiciding on top of her during a santa run, before going to bed. (I can't believe I forgot to take a screenshot!) And today I don't see Nelson; did you collect the money eppfel?

Passive wrote:

Edit: He also seems to have made an error when self testing as i just had a lovely tour of his house with all the death tiles changed for lights and dogs switched. Until the end were powered doors where still blocking the safe.

Hahah. But are you talking about Reyes, or a new name?

Passive wrote:

The guy has already spent the whole 20k bounty, didn't even leave anything to lure people in....

20k = 62 dogs so that could have backfired hilariously. I'm surprised he only bought about 6

#54 Re: Main Forum » The Fortress of Mr. Corey Phillip Smith » 2014-11-03 14:30:49

Alas! If only I had dropped more clubs! Was satisfying to watch. Would be too bad if you left; most active person around here.

Edit: I see that someone finished off most of the other dogs. Does it save the map if you kill a family member and die?

#55 Re: Main Forum » The Fortress of Mr. Corey Phillip Smith » 2014-11-03 12:13:20

Passive wrote:

I am going to change the phrasing from fun to being a dick, just one house is begging for it.

Oh yes, I can get behind this! I started by clubbing one at your house!

#56 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-11-03 07:19:00

At least hidden pets are interesting if information leaks, but if it's a pet toggling combo lock switches then it's the same thing (but probably more secure).

Did you know that long ago the game used to provide blueprints of houses when you robbed them? Probably the intention was to make map peek cheating much less effective. Jason complained that the addition of the blueprints system resulted in most traps (including combo locks and hidden-pet movements) being useless and the only difficult houses being those which were almost incomprehensible. Quote:

Jason wrote:

If you were clever enough to design a really hard puzzle (basically requiring that you be a practicing electrical engineer---even I had trouble doing it), then you could keep people out for a long time and prosper in the game. Everyone else, however, would design a house that would be broken right away through the reveal of its internals.

Read the full blog post here; it's pretty interesting.

Got to be some good stuff from that era (I've starting looking into electronic gadgets). I'm inclined to try my hand at computer generated houses! It would at least be nice to use a maze generator plus a few pitbull or whatnot so that I can always put up a simple house for the amusement of other players, even if it's broken in a few hours. I think that if everyone could easily put up simple houses without a big time commitment (including just repeatedly the same $2K house with small changes) we would have far more houses on the list. That is the reason I want to implement an 'Import' function in the client.

#57 Re: Main Forum » The Fortress of Mr. Corey Phillip Smith » 2014-11-03 05:40:53

Holy crap. Seriously, that's enough tools to go straight to any square on the map you want, isn't it? How do you protect against it, by making the location of your safe a guessing game?

I did a couple santa runs with either bricks or doorstops. Doorstops are underused! I prefer doing santa runs with worthless goods, but OK, if you promise a fun time...

And just now Albert Reyes threw away $2400 of tools on my broken house because he didn't even bother to peek in the front door before barging in with a gun! I guess he a) has an alt, b) didn't like my house and wanted to smash the place up. At least he is a very moral man and didn't shoot my family!

#58 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-11-03 05:33:37

Too bad about your repeated loss, Passive. So that was a bug in the Android client?

I say! Down with combo locks! Just no fun. I've been trying to put up a house with no combo locks or hidden pet movements, but I keep losing it to self tests. Turns out that if you don't pass a single self test, you don't even get a record of your house layout in the log file sad. I'm going to edit the client and add an import button, and in future design my houses in castledraft. This is just too annoying.

Ah cool, so gyuri is John Eric Bishop. I was sad to see people repeatedly bruteforce your house when it is so simple to work out. Surprised you still haven't changed it.

#59 Re: Main Forum » Cordial Minuet hacking bounty » 2014-11-03 03:54:37

Two weeks Jason fixed an SQL injection vulnerability. However the bounty page is still up, so I guess he got really lucky!

#60 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-10-31 05:42:50

I don't think that necessarily implies dual account abuse unless you mean Nelson couldn't have worked out your house before a recent death (it is a brand new name).
I posted the map not because I thought he was being abusive, but because any toolless suicide scout would see exactly the same thing I did. However I guess not being able to do suicide scouting if you have a house is an important aspect of the game, so I'll remove the link.

By the way, I recognise your house design. Travis Ralph Doane.

#61 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-10-31 01:34:42

Nelson did that repeatedly in your house? That would explain how he came out of nowhere with such an expensive house. It's horribly boring, nothing (so far) but a sequence of commit gates and a 9-plate combo lock.

Edit: removed a castledraft link.

#62 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-10-30 14:49:41

Haha, I like the message you left him.

I seem to be getting plenty of visitors and deaths. Make your house appear easy and many poke around... but too easy and they don't bother to bring tools hmm Last night a stranger and I had an exciting time repeatedly robbing each other's insecure houses simultaneously. Couldn't get to my vault to retrieve a club and give him a piece of my mind. Then he came back for my wife... and died before I could get his. Profitable nonetheless!

#63 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-10-29 23:33:26

Ah, well I see your house is still up, so there's still a chance for me to take revenge!

155 painting up for auction at the moment. That was a serious art collection.

#64 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-10-29 01:28:02

Yes, Passive is Gordon. I recognised that stash of vault contents you posted and learnt that I had been robbed! You used $21700 worth of tools (at full price) in order to make off with $5315. A dangerous man. At least I can be pleased that it was so expensive for you. And it was totally my own fault for not installing extra pits and a few concrete walls despite having the cash for it. I'm amazed that you assumed there wouldn't be any concrete or metal walls around the vault... and guessed correctly! And shorted out the power for the hell of it : (. I can't be bothered creating a new house so I'm putting it back up half broken.

Edit: nevermind, mistepped into a pit! Geez.

#65 Re: Main Forum » Noooooooooo!!!!! It is dead! » 2014-10-28 08:25:49

OK, because you complained I went and built a house with $2400 (that was yesterday). Haven't had a real house in a long time. I'm bad at house design, it takes me a ridiculously long time. I guess everyone else probably plans things out ahead of time while I try to come with traps on the spot and have to throw away most of them.

#66 Re: Main Forum » Website for my new game » 2014-10-03 03:47:53

Well, I haven't actually played CM either; there aren't exactly many players. But the Kotaku
article I think covered pretty much everything there is to know, barring aspects
yet to be added.

I admit, when I talked about not being able to win money off a good poker bot,
I meant a poker bot designed not to lose money, which probably means one designed for
competitions against other bots. Real bots playing on gambling websites are going to instead
be designed to win money off humans, and to do that it's far more important to exploit your
opponent's weaknesses than to ensure you don't have any weaknesses yourself (the two are mutually exclusive).
So it's probably true that these bots are predictable and beatable by better humans.

I don't actually play poker. Writing a bot and doing all that reading was my introduction to it, and I haven't gone back since that time. :)
However I'm really interested in CM, it seems like Poker Improved.

I think you're right about everything you said about CM and poker.
Jason was surely expecting bots on CM all along.  Anyone can use
a tool to compute odds, and already has decent information at the side of the screen by default
(maybe this should be improved. Someone can always fork the client to improve it).

Does it give you a URL solution or something?

Well it's that old trick for finding interesting webpages like admin panels and embargoed press releases: you just add obvious page names.

#67 Re: Main Forum » Spending 2k+ on tools to rob $100 » 2014-10-03 02:01:23

Are you talking about chills? After you die in a house you can no longer enter it until the chill is over. It used to last 24 hours, but was changed a month ago to 2 hours.

#68 Re: Main Forum » Spending 2k+ on tools to rob $100 » 2014-10-02 21:44:20

Often I'm too lazy to scout before bringing tools. And if I'm going to bring tools, I might as well bring $2000 worth, to maximise your profit if you manage to kill me.

But it wasn't me. I would instead suicide in a house without any cash.

#69 Re: Main Forum » Website for my new game » 2014-10-02 21:30:36

Anyone can download the source code and create an account. There is also a webpage hosting binaries for Windows and OSX, but I'm not going to post the link because if Jason wanted a flood of users he would have posted it himself.

I created an account. I'm user 26. Considering that there were only 7 users before the hacking challenge was put up, it appears that most of the game's users are hackers smile It's a good thing that unlike TCD, CM can be made cheat-proof.

cullman wrote:

Another way to think of it is this, if I was playing against a poker bot and knew I was playing against a poker bot online, I could quickly take advantage of the fact that bot is going to play certain cards a certain way every time.  Bluffing, is a particularly hard thing to implement in a bot.

Sorry, no you couldn't. If you were playing against a good poker bot then it would have no significantly exploitable weakness (they aren't perfect, but they can get very close to it). I have actually taken a course on game theory, read poker AI papers and implemented a simple 2 player Texas Hold'em poker bot. However I will agree that bluffing isn't easy. Good bluffing requires having a model of your (human) opponent. But as someone pointed out up the thread, in CM all opponents are anonymous, so you apparently can't learn your opponent's behaviour anyway. Anyway, here is where you misunderstand: you don't need an opponent model; you can just play the Nash equilibrium and you won't lose money.

Thanks for the information about California card rooms though, very interesting.

The ONLY part of Cordial Mineut which is non-trivial for a bot is bluffing during the betting/raising part, based on each player's partial knowledge of the other. CM definitely looks like poker distilled to its essence, with all that randomness removed. Pretty brilliant. Since the game gives you that partial knowledge at the side of the screen I guess that the aim is to reduce the advantage that a bot has over a human in computing what their odds are. However those bars don't convey everything that can be learnt (eg. exact odds), so bots are still at an advantage.

Computing the optimal strategy for this game is trivial: the game tree (ignoring bets) has only 518400 leaves. For comparison, that's only twice the size of tic-tac-toe! If I had time, I would write a CM bot which you could play against locally (I wouldn't release it on the official server) in order to investigate game strategies.

#70 Re: Main Forum » Cordial Minuet hacking bounty » 2014-10-02 05:13:28

I mean after public release, and before the server is patched.

I take back what I said. Jason seems to have a heck of a lot of experience with crypto and networking. And there's almost no deadly C/C++ running on the server. Holy crap, he's even using a YubiKey!

EDIT: It's a pity there's no prize for finding bugs allowing cheating. That's a lot of attack surface that's excluded.

#71 Re: Main Forum » Cordial Minuet hacking bounty » 2014-10-02 04:21:26

An enlightened approach! But it looks like you haven't advertised this much yet.

Having looked at the TCD code I've seen that you've got experience with crypto. Here's hoping you won't need to pay out, but I think that it's more likely you'll have to pay out the bounty and then apparently there's no bounty for the second security flaw lurking in the code?

I assume the bounty can't be earned by applying zerodays against the server infrastructure. Maybe you should explicitly state that.

#72 Re: Main Forum » Website for my new game » 2014-10-02 04:13:13

This is a very interesting game. Jason's clearly hoping that the use of a magic square as a payout matrix means that each players have equal possibility to win or draw; that is, that a zero-sum Nash equilibrium exists for every possible board position. The most obvious candidate is both players choosing columns uniformly at random, which is I believe the assumption you're making. However, I'm not convinced, and might run this past some mathematicians here. Unfortunately the strict "subject to chance" test means that if this assumption fails, you're in trouble. (I've never before seen anything where mathematics could be applied so directly to a legal decision, pretty interesting!)

Even more importantly, how the hell are you going to keep bots out of this game? And the complete source code for the client is available, so there's nothing stopping this from becoming bot infested.

#73 Re: Main Forum » The Mystery of Earl Michael Case » 2014-08-30 22:09:20

AMWhy wrote:

An update on Case:  He is dead.

Wow, man, game over! The end of a legend. He'll be missed.

#74 Re: Main Forum » Website for my new game » 2014-08-30 22:00:20

jasonrohrer wrote:

you have to deposit money into the game in order to play against someone (you enter your CC directly into the game interface, securely).

It think that will definitely scare people off (I can't name any other games that do that); is there a big enough advantage (convenience?) over depositing through a webpage to justify it?

#75 Re: Main Forum » Leaving... » 2014-08-15 05:38:56

Damn, I had hoped that with rather few active players that there wouldn't be any cheaters left. But hopefully there's just one: Timothy B. Griffin, and it's easy enough to ban one player. Have you complained to Jason?

cullman wrote:

As you've probably seen, I am working on a reboot that will be closed source and there will be considerable work done to make extracting the map from the client much harder.

I have a request though: if you've made improvements to the game such as porting it to android and iOS, can't you release the source code for those changes and just keep later changes to obfuscate stuff closed source?

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